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OL Discussion of what we have

Pep22 : 2/13/2018 10:14 am
General Comment: while we would all like to overhaul all five guys and their back-ups (I suppose 5% of that comment is sarcastic b/c we're all so ticked off about the OL state of affairs), I just want to start a thread about "in house" guys.

Tackles:

Wheeler - perhaps the biggest "upside" guy we have. At times he held his own, but more often than not he seemed to lack enough strength to maintain proper technique despite the fact that he is not raw from a fundamental perspective. It is always surprising/disturbing to me that a 4 year guy at a premier football factory lacks strength, but oh well. At 6'7", and fairly athletic, tenacious etc. he has potential as a LT. If the draft shakes out as we think it will, I don't see a LT solution coming, so we better hope a viable LT from the Wheeler/Flowers combo will emerge.

Flowers - I am not on board with a common refrain we hear (move him to RT, or G). I just don't think he knows how to translate all that mass into power.

I really don't see any other viable OT on the roster.

Guards:

I don't see Pugh coming back.

I don't know how we can afford Norwell at & gt; $10mm projected.

Jerry - I suppose, with the dearth of NFL caliber OL on this roster, he stays. Hopefully, he will be just a 6th or 7th OL. Versatility is an asset.

Fluker is a FA, correct?

Couple of UDFAs from last year that I like:

Ethan Cooper - small school guy (IUP) that I have only seen at the Senior Bowl practices. But I loved what I saw there. He has a somewhat short/boxy physique, but he fights every down with great intensity, is nimble/balnced and took to coaching well. Reminded me of Shaq Mason of NEP.

Jessaman Dunker - another small school guy. Very athletic but in need of an NFL weight room. Hopefully his "red shirt" year w NYG paid dividends.

Adam Bisnoawaty - I'd like to see him get stronger and grab a backup OL spot.

Center:

Brett Jones - I know he's not a super talented guy but I like the kid. Seems to have some of the attributes O'Hara had as a blue collar center.








...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/13/2018 10:22 am : link
It's a mess. And it's a mess because EVERY SINGLE ONE of Reese's premium picks on the OL has serious warts.
Realistically....  
Chris684 : 2/13/2018 10:22 am : link
I can see Jones as a stop gap or perhaps above average Center (if we can get legitimate guard play around him), Flowers on the right side, either guard or tackle and Wheeler in development and a chance to compete for the backup tackle spot.

Some of those lesser known names will presumably get a chance in camp but counting on anything beyond the above seems tough.

I would move on from Pugh, Richburg and Jerry.
should have been a much shorter OP.  
Victor in CT : 2/13/2018 10:30 am : link
nothing to see here. Eric said it perfectly. Reese neglected the line for too long, then fucked up the premium picks he was forced to invest.
Sign Norwell  
twostepgiants : 2/13/2018 10:34 am : link
Draft OL at top round 2.

Sign at least 1 more veteran FA.

Flowers needs to be here 1 more year, he cant play LT. Move him

This can be phase 1 of 2 year OL rebuild.
Jones, Richburg, Fluker and Pugh all F/A  
est1986 : 2/13/2018 10:35 am : link
We have Flowers Jerry Halapio Bisnowaty and Wheeler under contract... and we thought last years OL was bad.. if Dave G and Shurmur can fix this OL right away it will make Reese and the previous coaching staffs look really incompetent ...
Flowers Norwell Jones Fluker Pugh maybe the best reasonable option... biggest stretch being signing Norwell.. Add a solid draft pick behind that group and I think we can be not great but at the very least improved
We can afford to get Norwell  
superspynyg : 2/13/2018 10:44 am : link
at 10 mil and prob one other Oline around that. We would have to cut Marshall and Harris to get more room.

I would consider (and I know Im alone)the transition tag on Pugh. At least if he gets a semi team friendly deal we can match it.

If not he signs the tag and plays on 1 year 11 mil deal or we let him go.
Wheeler  
Marty866b : 2/13/2018 10:53 am : link
USC's nutrition dept. for their sports programs is to blame for Wheeler lacking the bulk and strength needed to excel.USC had four starting offensive lineman who played at under 300 pounds this year.
Boy its really amazing what low value the Giants got for  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2018 11:13 am : link
2#1s and 1 #2 pick
Guessing 4-5 stay with the team, meaning we need 3-4 new guys.  
rasbutant : 2/13/2018 11:15 am : link
Wheeler is a project, we don't know what we have there yet, but it's worth keeping him on the team to find out. But can't count on him.

Flowers can complete against whatever they bring in at LT. Maybe he moves to RT, or becomes swing T.

Jones is OK and holds his own, but he can be improved upon.

Jerry is a good back-up and i feel like he has actually played better a LG even though RG would seem to be a more natural position for him. But he is good insurance in case of injury to a starter and 3.5+/- mil isn't to bad a price to pay for a fringe starter.

I love Adam Bisnowaty's make-up and hope he can develop, but he's just a prospect at this point, have to what for preseason games to see if there has been any improvement.

So there is 4-5 guys, team typical carry 8 OL right? So that mean 3-4 new guys or resigned guys. Doesn't sound bad until you say they all need to be starters!
RE: Boy its really amazing what low value the Giants got for  
Victor in CT : 2/13/2018 11:15 am : link
In comment 13830919 gidiefor said:
Quote:
2#1s and 1 #2 pick


and Beatty was no big bargain either as a Rd 2 pick.
I think either  
ryanmkeane : 2/13/2018 11:24 am : link
Pugh or Richburg will be resigned and I'd lean towards Pugh
Here's hoping  
JonC : 2/13/2018 11:31 am : link
the OL and LB evaluation blindspots are about to disappear.
I don't think Pugh expects to return  
JonC : 2/13/2018 11:32 am : link
.
We may be on the verge of wishful thinking again  
idiotsavant : 2/13/2018 11:42 am : link
Two year rebuild is one eventuality we may have to face.

A big trade down is another.

I am scratching my head if the OL guru has been hired or not.

We do need one and not just for training the kids up. To help guide the draft and free agency process as well.

Unless you expect 5 OL supermen to appear that can deliver in any system....
RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/13/2018 11:48 am : link
In comment 13830817 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It's a mess. And it's a mess because EVERY SINGLE ONE of Reese's premium picks on the OL has serious warts.


Itís a mess because every single pick and FA Reese went after didnít pan out dating back to when he took over as GM.

Beatty was a project who got hurt after a brief stint of solid play.

Baas was solid when he was healthy but that wasnít very often and then he was out of the league.
Reese never ignored the OL..  
bLiTz 2k : 2/13/2018 11:54 am : link
but either he had a stroke of terrible luck, or the scouting was just absolutely atrocious..

Bad or No return on FAs and high picks
Schwartz
JD Walton etc.


Mid to low picks that never worked--
Koets, Petrus, McCants, Brewer, Eric Herman, Bobby Hart --sheesh

His best move recently IMO was Marshall Newhouse (who I think got a pretty bad rep here...could have used him in 2017 for sure)
Didn't Richburg play guard his rookie season? And if I recall  
Giants61 : 2/13/2018 12:20 pm : link
correctly he was perhaps less than OK. I though the consensus was that his second season he would move to his natural position of center
I dont think we can fix it this year...  
Capt. Don : 2/13/2018 12:25 pm : link
and if we try to we will end up reaching, whether it be FA or draft.
It's not rocket science  
idiotsavant : 2/13/2018 12:27 pm : link
1. Giant Men

Who also

2. Love to play football...really...

And are

3. Very athletic

As well as

4. Able to learn and integrate coaching

When you look at it like this. There are very few and you gotta pay or draft very high.
It will be very tough for the Giants to fix  
Beer Man : 2/13/2018 12:43 pm : link
the OL through FAs. For one there are not that many quality FA OL available this year. And second, there are 20 teams with more cash to spend than the Giants, and 10 have $45M or more in free cap space.
RE: ...  
Dankbeerman : 2/13/2018 12:51 pm : link
In comment 13830817 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It's a mess. And it's a mess because EVERY SINGLE ONE of Reese's premium picks on the OL has serious warts.


It also seems that all of them regress as they get opportunities to play. None have put together a full season of quality play.
RE: ...  
AcidTest : 2/13/2018 12:58 pm : link
In comment 13830817 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It's a mess. And it's a mess because EVERY SINGLE ONE of Reese's premium picks on the OL has serious warts.


It's also a mess because none of his day three picks were even serviceable reserves.
Think if we take Barkely at #2 or trade down for picks  
TMS : 2/13/2018 1:06 pm : link
WE could could go all out to fix the OL in the draft and FA. Unless We are really like a QB out there. Which I hope is not the case. Give ELI the chance he has earned it.
DG made his rep by finding lesser rated linemen in FA and the draft  
Ivan15 : 2/13/2018 1:26 pm : link
Thatís what he will do here.

O-line next year will have Wheeler, Flowers, Jones, Jerry, Bisnowaty, maybe Cooper, Fluker if he canít find a better deal, and a couple of free agents but not big names.

Pugh could be signed but thatís doubtful. Norwell wonít be signed.
Do did Reese make all those FA signings  
RollBlue : 2/13/2018 2:10 pm : link
and premium picks all by himself, or do you think TC had major input? Pugh was a good pick -just has had injury problems - let's see what he get's on the FA market. Richburg went in the draft right where he should have and filled a need. His first year a Center was largely successful. Mitch Petrus showed a lot of promise in his rookie year, and started at least one game late in the year (against GB I think), and played some in Super Bowl 46.

Is it the GMs fault these guys regressed?

People here were lambasting Reese for drafted OBJ when he missed his first four games also.

You have to go back to the Suburbanites for the last time this team had one of the better O-lines. Neither SB teams had great line. In fact SB46 team had MacKensie on his last legs, Snee at the end of his carrier, Dheil at LT was no great shakes.
RE: Do did Reese make all those FA signings  
bLiTz 2k : 2/13/2018 4:33 pm : link
In comment 13831278 RollBlue said:
Quote:
and premium picks all by himself, or do you think TC had major input? Pugh was a good pick -just has had injury problems - let's see what he get's on the FA market. Richburg went in the draft right where he should have and filled a need. His first year a Center was largely successful. Mitch Petrus showed a lot of promise in his rookie year, and started at least one game late in the year (against GB I think), and played some in Super Bowl 46.

Is it the GMs fault these guys regressed?

People here were lambasting Reese for drafted OBJ when he missed his first four games also.

You have to go back to the Suburbanites for the last time this team had one of the better O-lines. Neither SB teams had great line. In fact SB46 team had MacKensie on his last legs, Snee at the end of his carrier, Dheil at LT was no great shakes.


I donít get your premise..You are trying to defer much of the blame for absolutely awful evaluation and resource allocation on the position group to the coaching staff?

Based on what? Assumption?

The GM is fíing responsible for the talent on the team..tell me ANY one of those guys made a career after they left here and Iíd say you have a point, but they didnítóóand you donít.
RE: ...  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/13/2018 4:49 pm : link
In comment 13830817 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
It's a mess. And it's a mess because EVERY SINGLE ONE of Reese's premium picks on the OL has serious warts.


As much as Reese is to blame, ownership is rally at fault. His fost 5 heads he added one starter. Beatty. Which is even sadder when one considers the OL got better when he went down and DD was pushed back to LT and the OL at least could run block again.

And the reason they all have warts is that they were all desperate need picks. Every one of his guys was literally handed a job. Even Pugh who was the best of them. It was always going to be a disaster. How he was retained when they fired TC Still should boggle the mind.

Then last yearís draft. Waiting til Rd 6.

OL s like this made Barry Sanders retire. Easy to argent the group is the worst in the whole NFL.
RE: Reese never ignored the OL..  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/13/2018 5:02 pm : link
In comment 13831048 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
but either he had a stroke of terrible luck, or the scouting was just absolutely atrocious..

Bad or No return on FAs and high picks
Schwartz
JD Walton etc.


Mid to low picks that never worked--
Koets, Petrus, McCants, Brewer, Eric Herman, Bobby Hart --sheesh

His best move recently IMO was Marshall Newhouse (who I think got a pretty bad rep here...could have used him in 2017 for sure)


Please. So waiting every year til Rd 4 and later smart? Picking ONE guy in the first 5 years in Rd 2 is hardly making it priority. Go back and look at how many WRs DLs and DBs he drafted in that same time frame. Those were his priority spots. Still were.

He allowed it to fall apart all the while picking guys like Sintim Austin Hosley and Travis Beckum instead of guys like Max Unger or Cordy Glenn for a RB they didnít have to have. He wouldnt know a good OL prospect if one sat on him either somit was a perfect storm. Bad investments and the worse premium choices.

RE: RE: Reese never ignored the OL..  
bLiTz 2k : 2/13/2018 5:09 pm : link
In comment 13831512 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 13831048 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


but either he had a stroke of terrible luck, or the scouting was just absolutely atrocious..

Bad or No return on FAs and high picks
Schwartz
JD Walton etc.


Mid to low picks that never worked--
Koets, Petrus, McCants, Brewer, Eric Herman, Bobby Hart --sheesh

His best move recently IMO was Marshall Newhouse (who I think got a pretty bad rep here...could have used him in 2017 for sure)



Please. So waiting every year til Rd 4 and later smart? Picking ONE guy in the first 5 years in Rd 2 is hardly making it priority. Go back and look at how many WRs DLs and DBs he drafted in that same time frame. Those were his priority spots. Still were.

He allowed it to fall apart all the while picking guys like Sintim Austin Hosley and Travis Beckum instead of guys like Max Unger or Cordy Glenn for a RB they didnít have to have. He wouldnt know a good OL prospect if one sat on him either somit was a perfect storm. Bad investments and the worse premium choices.


We are on the same page in terms of how the OL was botched...

But i find it funny, in your previous post you kill the high draft choices because they were reach/need picks, then here you try and kill him for not investing higher picks in the position.

Talk about not knowing which way you want to go..

The bottom line is that Reese didnt address it enough until it was too late, I think that we can agree..BUT 2 first round picks and 1 Second round pick doesnt mean that he IGNORED it....The problem is the picks sucked, and so did the FAs they added to supplement. What part of that are you on the fence about?
ok so...  
Torrag : 2/13/2018 5:14 pm : link
...IMO in Jones we have or OC for the next 5-10 years. He played very well with very little talent around him and improved each game. By the end of the season he was at a pretty high level.

Flowers needs to move off LT but to do that we have to find a legit LT before next season. Whether he ultimately lands at RT or OG I'll leave up to the coaches to figure out.

Bisnowatty can be in the mix at OG, I hate his feet at RT. So there are plenty of holes to fill and even more questions to answer.
From left to right...  
Milton : 2/13/2018 5:43 pm : link

No reason to believe Wheeler can't get a little bigger and stronger, but it's his history of injuries which concern me more than his talent/ability. Health permitting, I view him as a future plus player at left tackle.

At left guard, Norwell will cost $13M/year and if it's a five or six year deal it will be manageable. By the time he reaches the high-cap years Manning will be off the books and the Giants will be saving cap room at the QB position with Rosen or Darnold still on their rookie deals (not to mention how much the cap goes up each year).

At center, I like the idea of pairing Jones with a day two draft pick (Price in round two or Ragnew in round three are two that make sense).

At right guard, I realize Fluker is less than ideal, but if he can be signed for a reasonable deal (averaging $3M-$4M/year), I think he represents good value. He has great intangibles.

At right tackle, my first choice is Pugh, because he can also back up left tackle and left guard without the team experiencing a significant drop off (or any drop off at all). But with Pugh it will come down to money and protection against injuries (both in terms of the cap and on the field).

Other than that, Jerry represents good depth at the two guard positions and Bisnowaty may or may not develop into a starting quality player at right guard or right tackle (too early for a verdict on him).

RE: From left to right...  
WillVAB : 2/13/2018 6:15 pm : link
In comment 13831542 Milton said:
Quote:

No reason to believe Wheeler can't get a little bigger and stronger, but it's his history of injuries which concern me more than his talent/ability. Health permitting, I view him as a future plus player at left tackle.

At left guard, Norwell will cost $13M/year and if it's a five or six year deal it will be manageable. By the time he reaches the high-cap years Manning will be off the books and the Giants will be saving cap room at the QB position with Rosen or Darnold still on their rookie deals (not to mention how much the cap goes up each year).

At center, I like the idea of pairing Jones with a day two draft pick (Price in round two or Ragnew in round three are two that make sense).

At right guard, I realize Fluker is less than ideal, but if he can be signed for a reasonable deal (averaging $3M-$4M/year), I think he represents good value. He has great intangibles.

At right tackle, my first choice is Pugh, because he can also back up left tackle and left guard without the team experiencing a significant drop off (or any drop off at all). But with Pugh it will come down to money and protection against injuries (both in terms of the cap and on the field).

Other than that, Jerry represents good depth at the two guard positions and Bisnowaty may or may not develop into a starting quality player at right guard or right tackle (too early for a verdict on him).


This is a bridge configuration until the Ď19 off-season, not a solution.

From a cap and talent standpoint it makes more sense to lean on the draft this year to fix the OL. The more guys playing on rookie deals the easier it is to absorb Beckham and Collins cap hit.
RE: RE: RE: Reese never ignored the OL..  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/13/2018 6:29 pm : link
In comment 13831519 bLiTz 2k said:
Quote:
In comment 13831512 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 13831048 bLiTz 2k said:


Quote:


but either he had a stroke of terrible luck, or the scouting was just absolutely atrocious..

Bad or No return on FAs and high picks
Schwartz
JD Walton etc.


Mid to low picks that never worked--
Koets, Petrus, McCants, Brewer, Eric Herman, Bobby Hart --sheesh

His best move recently IMO was Marshall Newhouse (who I think got a pretty bad rep here...could have used him in 2017 for sure)



Please. So waiting every year til Rd 4 and later smart? Picking ONE guy in the first 5 years in Rd 2 is hardly making it priority. Go back and look at how many WRs DLs and DBs he drafted in that same time frame. Those were his priority spots. Still were.

He allowed it to fall apart all the while picking guys like Sintim Austin Hosley and Travis Beckum instead of guys like Max Unger or Cordy Glenn for a RB they didnít have to have. He wouldnt know a good OL prospect if one sat on him either somit was a perfect storm. Bad investments and the worse premium choices.




We are on the same page in terms of how the OL was botched...

But i find it funny, in your previous post you kill the high draft choices because they were reach/need picks, then here you try and kill him for not investing higher picks in the position.

Talk about not knowing which way you want to go..

The bottom line is that Reese didnt address it enough until it was too late, I think that we can agree..BUT 2 first round picks and 1 Second round pick doesnt mean that he IGNORED it....The problem is the picks sucked, and so did the FAs they added to supplement. What part of that are you on the fence about?



This my my point and my opinion when I hear he didnít ignore the position. Maybe itís semantics. There are usually 9-10 OL on a team. Thatís about 8-10%. Not to mention important group with a pocket QB.

In his first 5 years he took 1 OL out of 15 possible picks in rounds 1-3. We can ageee to disagree if this ignoring or not. To me it is. . Never mind th one he did pick in Beatty was hardly an All Pro and he handed him the job. So thatís to me treating the as an afterthought until it was too late.

Then when he did address it but was forced to pick guys out of need and IMO above their most likely true value and missed.
OL  
stretch234 : 2/13/2018 8:15 pm : link
Let's be real here. Norwalll was part of an OL 2 years ago that got Can Newton destroyed. He is not any type of savior

We like to bash Reese on the OL, but have now been through 2 coaching regimes who left Flowers at LT and majority of times without help. That is a coaching issue. Let's remember the almighty Coughlin played their C of the future at G to play a completely overmatched Walton at C. If the offense is going to remain a short passing game first then the interior is more important

There are not a lot of OL out there that are really better than what the Giants have. What they lack is 1 dominant/exceptionalplayer on the OL. Pugh could be that but missing games is not how you get there

I resign Pugh and Fluker. Maybe even Richburg Sign a mid range Interior OL and draft OL on a couple of picks 2-3rd.

Will this 3rd regime move Flowers or not. The reality is that the RT was significantly more of an issue than LT

it is not easy Just throwing draft picks is not necessarily the answer nor is the high priced FA. The Giants best OL recently featured 2 UDFA a 5th,5th in Diego, 2nd in Snee and 3rd{McKenzie as a FA}
RE: OL  
Diver_Down : 2/13/2018 8:38 pm : link
In comment 13831671 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Let's be real here.

...

What they lack is 1 dominant/exceptionalplayer on the OL. Pugh could be that but missing games is not how you get there

...


Is that how you got your handle? Because it is quite a stretch to equivocate dominant/exceptional player with Pugh. It isn't just about missing games.
RE: OL  
WillVAB : 2/13/2018 9:03 pm : link
In comment 13831671 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Let's be real here. Norwalll was part of an OL 2 years ago that got Can Newton destroyed. He is not any type of savior

We like to bash Reese on the OL, but have now been through 2 coaching regimes who left Flowers at LT and majority of times without help. That is a coaching issue. Let's remember the almighty Coughlin played their C of the future at G to play a completely overmatched Walton at C. If the offense is going to remain a short passing game first then the interior is more important

There are not a lot of OL out there that are really better than what the Giants have. What they lack is 1 dominant/exceptionalplayer on the OL. Pugh could be that but missing games is not how you get there

I resign Pugh and Fluker. Maybe even Richburg Sign a mid range Interior OL and draft OL on a couple of picks 2-3rd.

Will this 3rd regime move Flowers or not. The reality is that the RT was significantly more of an issue than LT

it is not easy Just throwing draft picks is not necessarily the answer nor is the high priced FA. The Giants best OL recently featured 2 UDFA a 5th,5th in Diego, 2nd in Snee and 3rd{McKenzie as a FA}


The same line plus one draft pick isnít going to solve the problem.

Your proposal will actually make it worse because now you have FA dollars tied up in problematic players.
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