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Can Justin Pugh play Left Tackle?

adamg : 2/12/2018 12:21 pm
Curious waht our OL experts think about that idea. He's a hot name now that the ESPN report about us wanting to re-sign him came out. And I see a lot of people penciling him into RT, but if they're really considering moving Flowers to RT, would it make sense to put Pugh in at LT? For one, the left tackle market sucks. Two, Pugh seems like the kind of guy who could be serviceable in any spot you put him. If we can get serviceable at LT that would be an upgrade imv.

We could bring back Pugh and Fluker, add Norwell, and our line would be pretty much set, with depth from JJ and Wheeler. But does Pugh fill in to LT that easily?
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pugh missed  
japanhead : 2/12/2018 1:04 pm : link
half of all the games this season. the prior season he missed 5 games. the previous 2 years he missed 2 games per season. he's missing more and more time as his career progresses. he's a servicable, versatile guy who averages 9-10 games a season over the last 4 years of his career where he actually plays. stated another way, pugh has played in about 63% of games over the last 4 years. his rookie year, where he played at RT for a full 16 games, seems like a long time ago.

his best position really would be as the main swing guy, a la grey ruegamer, but given the pathetic state of the OL he maybe has the advantage. if they retain him i hope they at least offer him a contract that accounts for his being a lock to miss between 25 - 33 percent of games in a season.
Pugh LT  
Giantslifer : 2/12/2018 1:05 pm : link
Yeah.... about half the games
RE: RE: He's been tried at LT several times  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:12 pm : link
In comment 13829941 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13829894 JonC said:


Quote:


and has not held onto the position.



When was that? several times? He played RT for two years and was moved to LG. He may have filled in for Flowers for a game or part of a game, IIRC, but when was he ever tried at LT? I just do not remember it.

I wish he was because he is clearly the best LT on the team (or used to be on the team).


During training camp, practices, and he did play some LT in games.
RE: RE: RE: He's been tried at LT several times  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:13 pm : link
In comment 13829960 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13829941 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13829894 JonC said:


Quote:


and has not held onto the position.



When was that? several times? He played RT for two years and was moved to LG. He may have filled in for Flowers for a game or part of a game, IIRC, but when was he ever tried at LT? I just do not remember it.

I wish he was because he is clearly the best LT on the team (or used to be on the team).



During training camp, practices, and he did play some LT in games.


Let's not confuse ability to play LT in college with meaning he can definitely play it in the NFL.

Two different animals.
He can definitely play left tackle...  
M.S. : 2/12/2018 1:16 pm : link
...but not so well when he's on IR.
RE: NO  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:16 pm : link
In comment 13829944 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
Justin f***ing Pugh can NOT play Left Tackle in the NFL


This is a long long way from Syracuse


I think Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty knew enough about it so quit wondering.


Yep, I'll go with their knowledge before desperate fans.
There is also a big difference between being  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 1:23 pm : link
Our 'best at X' on roster and what we may want to do.

I'd rather play the 98% great guard only player (norwel?) than an 85% OT + 85% OG swing player in Pugh...even IF flowers is only a 75%. If that makes any sense.

The OP merely asked 'can he' and consensus is yes.
RE: He's been tried at LT several times  
RetroJint : 2/12/2018 1:29 pm : link
In comment 13829894 JonC said:
Quote:
and has not held onto the position.

Where did you come up with that? The point is moot. He’s moving on. Olinemen who play through their walk year sign with new teams, as will Richburg & Fluker.

But an accurate analysis of his career reveals that they decided to stay with Beatty his rookie season . The ole “get the five best out there.” Then they drafted Flowers. Then they moved Justin to G. I mean he will get his 60 million dollar deal with somebody . As far as the injuries how about Lane Johnson? Do you think the Eagles are glad they exhibited patience with the injuries and PED suspension?

The Giants will go in huge for somebody else’s G in a few short weeks .
During training camp, practices, and he did play some LT in games  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:32 pm : link
and in the end he wound up at LG.

Doesn't suggest any confidence in him as a LT in the NFL.
and I pray Pugh leaves  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:33 pm : link
we need players who are available to play.
RE: RE: RE: He's been tried at LT several times  
section125 : 2/12/2018 1:37 pm : link
In comment 13829960 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13829941 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 13829894 JonC said:


Quote:


and has not held onto the position.



When was that? several times? He played RT for two years and was moved to LG. He may have filled in for Flowers for a game or part of a game, IIRC, but when was he ever tried at LT? I just do not remember it.

I wish he was because he is clearly the best LT on the team (or used to be on the team).



During training camp, practices, and he did play some LT in games.


That's is not a fair assessment. They were not moving Flowers off LT. In camp, he may have moved just to get playing time at LT for the purpose of familiarization. If it was a fair assessment, Pugh would have been LT. He is clearly better than Flowers. Seeing Pugh handle Vonn Miller was pretty interesting.(IMHO)

Moot point since I think Gettleman moves on because of price and injuries.
not to mention the GM who presided over his drafting  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:38 pm : link
suggested his best position might be Center.
section  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:39 pm : link
Pugh has had more opportunities than that, and after five NFL seasons he was unable to win the LT job.
Left tackle is the most important position on the OL  
JonC : 2/12/2018 1:41 pm : link
with a right-handed QB, and despite that Coughlin didn't plug Pugh in at LT and leave him there. A handful of professional coaches consistently decide he was better used elsewhere.

Every year, fans suggest it and it doesn't happen.
I'm going to answer that with a question  
Peppers : 2/12/2018 1:48 pm : link
With our struggles at the position why hasn't he played it?

He's been here 5 years, that's plenty of time for the coaches to know if he can or not. They actually forced the issue at RT and he struggled which resulted in the move inside to LG.. And he's a good LG when healthy.

However, all this Pugh talk is moot. He moved out of his apartment and he's excited about free agency. I think it's a safe bet to say he's not coming back.
RE: section  
section125 : 2/12/2018 1:51 pm : link
In comment 13830015 JonC said:
Quote:
Pugh has had more opportunities than that, and after five NFL seasons he was unable to win the LT job.


Ok, you have more and better sources and I have none! I'd believe you over me any day.
This thread really says it all  
Emil : 2/12/2018 1:56 pm : link
when it comes to the Giants OL problems.

Pugh was drafted, playing LT in college and thus far has not shown an ability to play that position in the pros. At the time, it didn't matter because Beatty was the LT. Worse still is that Pugh couldn't stick at RT either. He landed at LG, a position he plays well but he has not stayed healthy during his time here.

Flowers played LT in college, and was drafted to start at RT while Beatty manned LT. The eventual plan was for Flowers to take over at LT in the future. Beatty tears his pec in the weight room and Flowers is thrust into the starting LT tackle job. Over the past few years his inconsistent technique has been exposed by NFL caliber pass rushers. Now the debate is whether Flowers should be moved to RT (which I think won't change anything) or RG.

Pugh and Flowers are two 1st round picks, drafted as OTs who are likely limited to being OGs in the NFL. Reese and Ross should have been fired for this reason alone. I don't know many teams that can survive drafting OTs in the first round that can't play the position in the NFL.
RE: RE: section  
JonC : 2/12/2018 2:00 pm : link
In comment 13830024 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 13830015 JonC said:


Quote:


Pugh has had more opportunities than that, and after five NFL seasons he was unable to win the LT job.



Ok, you have more and better sources and I have none! I'd believe you over me any day.


Like Peppers said more eloquently, you can be sure Pugh had his chances over five seasons. This isn't something that's been missed by multiple professionals, imv.
The one daunting challenge about this OL rebuild  
Reb8thVA : 2/12/2018 2:53 pm : link
is that there isn't one piece on the OL we can build around.

I said this last year around draft time, til I was blue in the face, that we needed to prepare for this contingency. They did nothing
a bunch of whom just got fired  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 2:55 pm : link
not saying pugh is the answer. How would I know?

But as a fan from way out here I cannot simply assume that Flowers earned the starting OLT spot ...over pugh or anyone else, only due to his on the field play, fairly evaluated by the professionals. Maybe. Maybe not.
/\/\  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 2:57 pm : link
jonc
RE: a bunch of whom just got fired  
Rory : 2/12/2018 3:31 pm : link
In comment 13830105 idiotsavant said:
Quote:
not saying pugh is the answer. How would I know?

But as a fan from way out here I cannot simply assume that Flowers earned the starting OLT spot ...over pugh or anyone else, only due to his on the field play, fairly evaluated by the professionals. Maybe. Maybe not.


Well this year it will be a full court press to fix that issue. For the first time I can remember in a long time I anticipate the Giants signing one of the top FA lineman AND drafting 1 with their 2nd overall pick. Could even see a trade develop too.

Offensive line will be the key target for this staff.
He played LT in 2015 vs WAS  
Breeze_94 : 2/12/2018 3:37 pm : link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-lJS5MeUHg&t=3616s
If Pugh was the answer at LT  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/12/2018 3:41 pm : link
He would have been the LT years ago and Flowers wouldn't be a Giant.

Arguing that he didn't get opportunities there is ridiculous.
Serviceable  
old man : 2/12/2018 4:32 pm : link
for 2.. maybe 3 straight games at most...but then needs a game off before going back to G; his body just cant take a 5 game stretch.
If someone wants to overpay or thinks they can keep him in a scheme that doesn't require him to hold his blocks for long thus maybe reducing innljury...please feel free to sign him.
Think he would be adequate there  
TMS : 2/12/2018 4:33 pm : link
for along as he could stay on the field. He is overmatched there physically by the better DEs and he will wear down quickly.
Maybe the answer is another Pugh type  
TMS : 2/12/2018 4:39 pm : link
LT and work them as a team. The really top guys cost too much if proven ,and very hard to find even high in the draft. Example Flowers picked at #9.
RE: This thread really says it all  
Rjanyg : 2/12/2018 7:07 pm : link
In comment 13830035 Emil said:
Quote:
when it comes to the Giants OL problems.

Pugh was drafted, playing LT in college and thus far has not shown an ability to play that position in the pros. At the time, it didn't matter because Beatty was the LT. Worse still is that Pugh couldn't stick at RT either. He landed at LG, a position he plays well but he has not stayed healthy during his time here.

Flowers played LT in college, and was drafted to start at RT while Beatty manned LT. The eventual plan was for Flowers to take over at LT in the future. Beatty tears his pec in the weight room and Flowers is thrust into the starting LT tackle job. Over the past few years his inconsistent technique has been exposed by NFL caliber pass rushers. Now the debate is whether Flowers should be moved to RT (which I think won't change anything) or RG.

Pugh and Flowers are two 1st round picks, drafted as OTs who are likely limited to being OGs in the NFL. Reese and Ross should have been fired for this reason alone. I don't know many teams that can survive drafting OTs in the first round that can't play the position in the NFL.


Great post Emil.

Strangely enough, Chad Wheeler, an UDFA, may be our starting left tackle next year. He has better technique thank Flowers now and just needs reps and time in the weight room. I don't see DG spending big on Solder even if NE lets him go. I don't see a LT in draft that is going to be available in round 2 other than Tyrell Crosby that has a chance of manning the position.

He doesn't have the length or strength to main the LT position  
GFAN52 : 2/12/2018 7:27 pm : link
.
...  
christian : 2/12/2018 7:29 pm : link
I'm not convinced the previous management and staff actually thought Flowers was a better LT than Pugh, but more so Flowers at tackle and Pugh was greater than Pugh at LT and Flowers else where.
I wouldl not give him LT money  
Steve in South Jersey : 2/12/2018 7:33 pm : link
not reliable healthy. Short arms might be a problem for him at LT but did okay with it at RT and G.
JonC  
Matt M. : 2/12/2018 7:54 pm : link
He was never put in competition for the LT job. He filled in for a few games and played well. Well enough to be considered a long term solution there? I don't know. But, it is disingenuous to say he was given many opportunities and he failed to win the job. One, he wasn't given many opportunities. Two, he didn't fail to win the job. He wasn't competing for the job. He could be a decent LT based on a very small sample. But, he can also be a decent LG, RG, or RT. The problem is he isn't going to be great and he almosgt certainly isn't going to make it through a season. So, there is no way in Hell I would give him anywhere near the money he wants. I don't even want him back at a fraction of what he wants.
More likely this.  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2018 7:55 pm : link
They evaluated flowers ...and the entire roster and only found -1- player who they felt could play left guard. 1. Pugh. Never mind them that at that moment he was probably still a better olt than flowers...they simply didn't have ANY player they trusted at LG.

So. They simply decided to run with a developmental choice , which is what flowers was... regardless of draft slot.

That's if you totally discount top managemnt meddling.
My recollection as Pugh was the best LT on the team  
PatersonPlank : 2/12/2018 7:56 pm : link
He was moved to G simply because they drafted Flowers and thought the overall line would be better with both of them out there. Since Pugh is more versatile and experienced, they moved him inside. I think Pugh could definitely handle the LT position.
...  
christian : 2/12/2018 7:59 pm : link
Pugh could get 3/4 of the money Norwell does, and the gap between the 2 players is a great deal more than that.

I believe in the end Norwell will be a much better value, even at a record setting cost.
RE: RE: NO  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/12/2018 8:10 pm : link
In comment 13829968 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13829944 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


Justin f***ing Pugh can NOT play Left Tackle in the NFL


This is a long long way from Syracuse


I think Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty knew enough about it so quit wondering.



Yep, I'll go with their knowledge before desperate fans.


Geez. Why? Lol.
RE: My recollection as Pugh was the best LT on the team  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/12/2018 8:17 pm : link
In comment 13830428 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
He was moved to G simply because they drafted Flowers and thought the overall line would be better with both of them out there. Since Pugh is more versatile and experienced, they moved him inside. I think Pugh could definitely handle the LT position.


He was moved to G from RT. Beatty was Still the LT when he was moved
To RT. Beatty was beyond average. Maybe they should have put Pugh there and tried him but Reese re-signed Beatty. Pugh is literally the only OL Reese drafted who fit his draft slot.

Thank God he's gone.
RE: RE: NO  
est1986 : 2/12/2018 8:30 pm : link
In comment 13829968 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 13829944 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


Justin f***ing Pugh can NOT play Left Tackle in the NFL


This is a long long way from Syracuse


I think Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty knew enough about it so quit wondering.



Yep, I'll go with their knowledge before desperate fans.


You mean the guys that thought Ereck Flowers was the next Tyron Smith, yeah fucking right... If they evaluated OL talent so good why in the hell did they go all in on jags like Geoff Schwartz and David Baas? Yeah I love TC but he did this OL zero justice in his last 3-5 years here in NY. Funny how Reese gets ALL the blame for that part...
Lots of revisionist history here  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/12/2018 8:31 pm : link
So now Pugh was moved because they drafted Flowers? What are you smoking? They pushed Flowers to LT too soon because Beatty got hurt.

You twits can convince yourself of anything to fit your chosen narrative. You badly want to believe that Pugh is a LT. He is not.

Have fun in your fantasy land.
RE: Lots of revisionist history here  
est1986 : 2/12/2018 8:48 pm : link
In comment 13830464 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
So now Pugh was moved because they drafted Flowers? What are you smoking? They pushed Flowers to LT too soon because Beatty got hurt.

You twits can convince yourself of anything to fit your chosen narrative. You badly want to believe that Pugh is a LT. He is not.

Have fun in your fantasy land.


Flowers would have been the RT if Beatty never got hurt... true
BUT Pugh would have played better at LT than Flowers did... fact
Just because TC went with Flowers at LT over Pugh it does not mean Pugh can’t play LT... Giants can make mistakes too and not keeping Flowers at RT and moving Pugh to LT when Beatty went down, IMO was a mistake...

Anyone who wants to argue that “TC knows best” blah blah blah... is dumb and can’t call it like they see it... any average fan with half a brain that has watched would know Pugh would have been a better LT than Flowers and there is no way in hell Flowers could have been any worse at RT than he is at LT... TC made a mistake, period. Almost everyone would have been a better LT than Flowers, ecspecially Pugh, our best linemen.

Now translating TC’s decision to have Flowers play at LT over Pugh into “Pugh can’t play LT” instead of TC made a mistake with our LT that we are still paying for 3 years later sounds like something out of fantasy land
They’re not going to give Pugh LT  
Simms11 : 2/12/2018 9:00 pm : link
money! It’s a position he played like one game standing in for Flowers, IIRC......not happening. Paying as a top Guard or RT, so be it, but not LT. Giants totally mismanaged the Oline and now what do we do with Flowers? Pugh could have been tried last off-season at LT and Flowers at RT, but they chose to keep things as they were and HOPE for improvement.
RE: RE: RE: NO  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/12/2018 9:25 pm : link
In comment 13830462 est1986 said:
Quote:
In comment 13829968 JonC said:


Quote:


In comment 13829944 GeorgeAdams33 said:


Quote:


Justin f***ing Pugh can NOT play Left Tackle in the NFL


This is a long long way from Syracuse


I think Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty knew enough about it so quit wondering.



Yep, I'll go with their knowledge before desperate fans.



You mean the guys that thought Ereck Flowers was the next Tyron Smith, yeah fucking right... If they evaluated OL talent so good why in the hell did they go all in on jags like Geoff Schwartz and David Baas? Yeah I love TC but he did this OL zero justice in his last 3-5 years here in NY. Funny how Reese gets ALL the blame for that part...


Caughlin dint pick Flowers or sign Schwartz. Reese did. Cuaglinnplayed who the moron gave him. Nice rant though
Can Justin Pugh play Left Tackle?  
Torrag : 2/12/2018 10:41 pm : link
Justin Pugh's best position is and always has been at RT. The Giants really screwed the pooch on this one.
I guess coughlin had nothing to do with the roster  
est1986 : 2/12/2018 11:51 pm : link
No major input on the draft or F/A... our 2x SB winning coach had nothing to do with us drafting Flowers or Signing Schwartz even though the transcripts after signing both had him heaping praises on both.. some people are no naive... no, now I am being naive... some people are just dumb. Yeah, it was ALL Reese’s fault, TC knew what he was doing with the OL...
A few facts:  
mrvax : 2/13/2018 1:59 am : link
Coughlin made plenty of mistakes in selecting who and when to play Oline. Ex: Around 2013/14 Sean Locklear was doing a good job filling in for Deihl. Deihl comes back from injury and most fans knew Deihl was shot. Tom sends Locklear to the bench and Diehl plays some of the worst RT I've ever seen.

IIRC, when Pugh was picked, he was like the 4th tackle taken. A lot of draftnics laughed at the Giants for taking 2nd round talent.

Pugh played all 4 years of college at LT.

Beatty was solid in pass pro but weak in the run game. Maybe Pugh could be an upgrade? After the '13 draft, Reese responded to challenges that Pugh was a reach by saying he'd seen all of Pugh's plays and did not see a single time that Pugh didn't succeed because of his alleged short arms. Can't bother to look now but I think Pugh performed better than the 3 tackles taken earlier.

The few times Pugh played LT, he did a solid job and was probably better than Flowers.

Those are the facts. Conjecture is if Pugh could have played LT well for an extended period of time.
=====================================================
IMO, I'd let Pugh walk and pay Norwell more $ than Pugh will get for obvious reasons. We already have a backup LT.

Some of you need to grow up  
GeorgeAdams33 : 2/13/2018 2:08 am : link
and others need to growacet

Both groups need to invest in some new prescription glasses and learn what a head coach does vs. what a GM is supposed to do.
Pugh didnt move to LG because of Flowers  
Matt M. : 2/13/2018 8:03 am : link
It's more like the other way around. Lugh had a terrible season at RT (attributed in part to injury) and was moved inside. His strength was perceived to be the left side because it was his natural side from 4 years at LT at Syracuse and because it is often considered less of a pkwer position. Flowers was drafted to play RT.

This is where there is revisionist history and not just among fans. Before the draft scouts almost inanimously said Flowers was best suited for RT given his raw ability and power, but lack of technique. Aftsr the draft, the Giants scouting reports and public comments said the same thing. I. OTAs and minicamp he was almost exclusively at RT. There wasnt even much talk of a future at LT. Then Beatty got hurt and they moved him there right off the bat. The Giants altered everything they wrote and said about him, now claiming he was draffed to play LT all along. They haven't looked back since...until maybe (yes, maybe) this off season.
RE: JonC  
JonC : 2/13/2018 8:03 am : link
In comment 13830425 Matt M. said:
Quote:
He was never put in competition for the LT job. He filled in for a few games and played well. Well enough to be considered a long term solution there? I don't know. But, it is disingenuous to say he was given many opportunities and he failed to win the job. One, he wasn't given many opportunities. Two, he didn't fail to win the job. He wasn't competing for the job. He could be a decent LT based on a very small sample. But, he can also be a decent LG, RG, or RT. The problem is he isn't going to be great and he almosgt certainly isn't going to make it through a season. So, there is no way in Hell I would give him anywhere near the money he wants. I don't even want him back at a fraction of what he wants.


All due respect Matt, the man was here five years, every day is an opportunity. He played LT in practice on more than one occasion, as well as in games, and he was not left at LT. These are the facts, not a position of fans wondering why and arguing semantics.


End of story.
At syracuse?  
Heisenberg : 2/13/2018 8:07 am : link
sure.
I just think we need to move on from Pugh ...  
Manny in CA : 2/13/2018 6:24 pm : link

He was a Jerry Reese draft day mistake. He's already failed at tackle, got moved to guard (where he was just OK). To me LT is the A-#1 need

Orlando Brown in the draft is terrific, but he's not a pro LT (I don't think there's anybody in the draft that's good enough to fill the hole, certainly not better than the incumbent - Ereck Flowers).

We need an upgrade, not another "Pugh mistake". The only shot we have is free agent Nate Solder.
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